Mind Manners
Mind Manners
Zack Byman: Navigating the Tides of Fatherhood, Part 2
"Love multiplies," Zack expressed about each child born. When the first cries of each newborn echoed in the delivery room, a tidal wave of emotions crashed over Zack Byman — he was a father once again. The journey from partner to parent is a profound one, and in this heartfelt episode, Zack takes you through the highs, the lows, and the unscripted moments of laughter that make up fatherhood. From the gripping fear of the unknown to the elation of holding my child for the first time, he shares with you not just stories, but the lessons learned about love's capacity to expand with each new addition to the family.
Balancing a bustling household and a thriving marital relationship is no small feat. He tackles the realities of daily life in a large family, where sacrifice becomes as routine as the morning alarm, and love is the thread that weaves through each interaction, multiplying rather than dividing. Zack gets personal about the push and pull between selflessness and the need for personal space, revealing how these dynamics are navigated and how we make room for what matters most—our relationships, our time, and our growth as parents.
Lastly, we confront the evolving landscape of masculinity and the emotional development of both ourselves and our children. It's a candid discussion on the pressures men face and the importance of breaking free from the mold to foster emotional complexity. By setting an example of love and vulnerability, we discuss how fathers can shape their children's expectations and understanding of manhood, and the integral conversations that need to happen during adolescence.
Join me in unpacking these nuanced aspects of modern parenting, and perhaps find a reflection of your own experiences in this episode dedicated to dads everywhere.
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You're listening to Mind Manners, hosted by licensed psychotherapist Albert Nguyen. Albert helps his clients overcome past trauma, change their mindset and accelerate their personal and professional development. This podcast covers a wide range of mental health and self-development topics, with each episode offering an actionable step towards a better you. If you're on a wellness journey, keep listening.
Speaker 2:So how about we transition from being a husband to now being a father? So each child brings their own unique qualities to a family. Do you remember when you had your first child, and what was that like?
Speaker 3:Obviously, the reason we got married was to have kids and to have each other. I know, when we had our first child, or even just first found out we I was pregnant with our first, we were giddy. We were definitely really happy, um, scared of course, not knowing what to expect. There's all kinds of scary and crazy things that can happen. I know that because I stated before that I had three real main goals in my life being a husband and a father was second. Yeah, like I said, we were giddy, we were over the moon, like you see it in the movies or whatever the tv shows that you get the couple that's wanting to have a baby and then they get pregnancy tests and crying happy and tell everybody and it was exciting, it was.
Speaker 3:I've been a worrier my whole life, so I spent quite a bit of time laying in bed, wandering and worrying about having a son, but no life about. Maybe the childbirth would be too much for her. I might have tangled out a life. It's the real thing. The real thing some of us, probably for many of us, those thoughts come from nowhere. For years I had a younger sibling that we lost a few days old, and then I lost a grandfather and some pets. Through the years that kind of made me susceptible to those fears and griefs about losing something like that. So yeah, as an adult I was definitely afraid of that. And to be a father, it was exciting, I was absolutely ready for it, but at the same time, no idea what being a father meant. And they have books about it and all that. And you get the books or buy the books. Someone gives you the book and you have the best entrance to read every word in it and it's on a shelf for 15 years, never read it. Definitely.
Speaker 3:When our first child was born, when Isaiah was born, it was an overload of joy. There's tears, there's amazing happy camps. Here we did it for parents. It's actually a really funny story too. So with our first child, we thought it would be really cool to allow both my mom and my wife's mom to be in the room for the birth and it was really funny because you have to go to class, they have to go to birth class before you have the birth and they have you role play with your spouse or your wife. So them like you practice encouraging them to breathe and being there, being a help for them. But it turned out to be hilarious because we decided that Christine's mom and my mom would be in the room for birth and so the three of us were beside the bed, christine and the whole time, through the whole birth. Her mom could encourage her and it was fine. My mom could encourage her, and it was fine. My mom could encourage her, and it was okay. But any time I said anything I was sad. It was hilarious In the moment it was funny, but not so funny because it was happening. I was experiencing it Today. It's hilarious. We love to joke about it and laugh about it because it was just funny.
Speaker 3:Christine's mom was You're doing great, you're doing great, keep it up. And it was all yeah, okay. And then my mom you're doing good, you keep it up. And it was all hockey door and I'm like you're doing fine. And she turns to me and goes you did this to me. Whoa, what the heck is this? It was like the comedies or you hear about about it. There's comedians that have had bits about that through the years. It was literally calling good to go. I said something and she just you did this to me. I turned and looked at it. I was just petrified and I turned and looked at my mom oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, nothing like the training class. And then I turned and looked at my mom and I said yes, I'm just going to go sit down. And Christine turns to me and she goes you're not going anywhere. Oh man, it was shocking. I was just. I was completely blown away. But it was all fine.
Speaker 3:Once it was all said and done, we were good and they left the room. And afterwards, after this all happened, and we went home and we talked about it. Christine hardly remembered anything. She was so in the moment just trying to give birth. That's such a primal thing to give birth to a baby, that's huge, that's massive, it's a dramatic event. So when I brought it up later she hardly had any memory of it and at that moment we decided like that we would not have anyone or any of the rest of the birds except her and I. Because it was obvious in retrospect it was obvious looking back, that that basically what had happened is that these two women in our lives that were supports for us had become just that in the birthing room. She was the support and she was the support, and at that point I became the source of the pain, source of the trauma that was happening right then. So we figure, with our second child we had nobody in the room but of course the doctors, nurses and myself, my wife, and it was fine, because then at that point I was the sole source of comfort and health, and so that would. That definitely cemented it for us. For the rest of the birds, it would only be her, and I'm super, super thankful that I've been able to be at every, all 12 of the birds.
Speaker 3:Every single experience of becoming a father again, again and again. I don't think that's changed. I think I would say like that, maybe the amount of emotion or the amount of tears and crying and all that gains a bit, probably less, because it's not. I don't want to sound bad, but it's not new any. The more you experience something, it's still. It's still fun to drive 100 miles an hour every time you do it, but it's just 100 miles an hour. Now you've done it 20 times. Whatever it, it's still a miracle, it's still amazing. It still worries me every single time I got. As years went on, I got more brave, like I've kept forward every time, the last several babies, I would go check it out. The afterbirth and the whole miracle of birth is amazing. So to be able to experience it and see everything is has just been amazing. Every time it's amazing every time you see it happen, still amazing.
Speaker 3:And as far as having multiple children, I've heard people ask how can you even, how could you even deal with that many children, how could you even love so many children? And I think that's where some people get it completely bad. Every single time you have another child, love just multiplies. It doesn't divide. It's not like you have to divide your love between your children, it's multiplied. Every child you have is just that much more love. You have to divide your time. Of course you don't get more time, but you get more possibility. So that part is a challenge, yes, but love, no. Love multiplies, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome. So parenting I've worked with a lot of parents also in the past and it definitely involves sacrifices. What's something that you've willingly sacrificed as a father that has ultimately contributed to your personal growth and your own family's well-being?
Speaker 3:There's a joke or a running joke in life that you just can't wait to get the kids to bed so that you can have some time alone in life. It's true, it's true. It's true. Some days it feels bad, it feels crappy that you want to put the kids to bed so that you can just. You just need space, you need them to just not be grabbing at your ankles, so to speak. It's real, though it is so real it doesn't matter if you have one or if you have both. Yeah, I think the biggest sacrifice is this.
Speaker 2:That hasn't been different for you when you have one, two, now 12? The difference between having a few to what you have now? Doesn't that change the level of exhaustion and how much it taxes you as a parent?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes and no, yes and no. You get used to it. There comes a point where really the hardest, the most involved that you are with kids is like that up to five or six years old. Hopefully now I ain't going to have it Sometimes I'll have four years old where they're still pretty much constantly in a diaper. That's the real, time consuming, the real. They need supervision and attention all day. It's like that first four years. So essentially, once you have four kids, chaos never really gets that much worse. It's hard for people to understand unless you've been in it. Once you get four kids, or five kids, the chaos doesn't really get that much worse because once they hit five and six years of age, their health they can actually take away from the chaos. And as long as you got those four kids in diapers, it doesn't change. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:We have 12 now and, yeah, it is more chaotic because instead of dishing up four meals we have to dish up 12 or 14 meals. So definitely, instead of cooking dinner for six, I'm cooking dinner for 14. That's bigger, yeah, but I'm still cooking dinner Usually. It still takes the same amount of time. It's just instead of doing two pounds of hamburger, I'm doing six or eight pounds of hamburger. If I'm, instead of doing one or two steaks, I'm doing ten steaks. Instead of doing a package of hot dogs and having leftovers, we're doing three packages, whatever. It's still just cooking dinner. It's still the same level of chaos. We still only have three or four diapers to change constantly throughout the day and the other kids still help out. So, yeah, it's definitely more with a bunch of kids, definitely more in every way.
Speaker 3:I'm in Austin going to bed saying goodnight I'm not saying goodnight and tucking in three or four kids. It's 12 kids. You gotta say goodnight and off to bed, probably bedtime. And, excuse me, bedtime and breakfast time are probably the most chaotic because on the morning everybody's out of bed, everybody wants breakfast, you have all these kids that have to shower and these kids that need a change, and so that's bigger because there's still always a couple of kids two, three kids, whatever that need the nighttime diapers.
Speaker 3:So instead of just three or four diapers in the morning, it's six. So morning is more chaotic. And then bedtime is also more chaotic because instead of this kid playing here and this kid playing here and this kid here, and they're all kind of self-entertaining, everyone's in bed kid gear and they're all kind of self-entertaining. Everyone's in bed and so you have just a pile of kids that aren't ready to go to bed or don't want to go to bed or don't want to quit playing. Yeah, definitely, by the time it's we're putting kids to bed, we're ready for them to just be in bed, so we can have like a half hour to just chill or go to sleep.
Speaker 2:Yes, Zach. How has that affected your relationship with your wife and with more kids? Because I hear that you have those moments where you're just waiting for the kids to go to bed so you can have your space and the time with your wife. I'm wondering has that changed because there's more kids too, and do you find it's harder to make time for the?
Speaker 3:relationship. For myself I'd say no, but I think that's going to be different. It goes without saying that we could be self as humans. We could be self. This is mine, not yours, it's mine. You can't have it, don't touch it, whatever. And then some of us find ourselves are more selfless where we'll buy something that's mine, but then if you ask for it we'll go ahead. Sure, you can ask, and I tried.
Speaker 3:I tried really hard in my life, yeah, to be selfless, to let people have what I have to share, and apparently I do to a fault, because I've been told several times that you have to tell people you have to charge for your time. Your time is valuable, your time is worth something. You can't always give up your time and I understand that. I do understand that. But it just doesn't feel right. I don't know, and on this day and age people are like they want to say it's a bad thing, shouldn't be that way. But I don't, it's just not my nature. Does that mean I'm a fool and I'm taking advantage of it? I have no idea, I don't know. But yeah, it's as far as taking away from trying to still work on the relationship or build, have a relationship. That's up to you as a person. Work on the relationship or build, have a relationship. That's up to you as a person. If you want that relationship, doesn't matter how many, how many other responsibilities you have, whether it's children, whether it's a business and seven co-workers and three business partners, everything in case. Time is our most valuable asset and if you run plus 14 or 15 hour day and then you're just going to go to bed without spending 20 minutes to talk to your wife or hang out or or even watch people, you sometimes we just watch youtube videos and laugh you have, you have to put in the work you do. But there's often times where my wife is not feeling good during the day and I'll I wake up at 4, 30, 5 o'clock in the morning. When the weather's nice, I'll bike for it. So you're looking at, then I'm off work and home by 4, 30 or 5, so that's 12 hours. If you had a rough day and not feeling good, I'll come home, cook dinner, and so that's an hour plus. I'm cooking dinner and then serve kids and serve ourselves and eat and then we try bedtime about 7, 7, 7.38. A lot of times that goes late and then again bedtime chaos, kids brushing their teeth. Now that takes time. Next thing, they're jumping in and out of the bathtub and someone falls over and smacks their head.
Speaker 3:It's chaos. It is, it's absolutely chaos, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. There's going to be some day when I'm old and alone and that's a lie I won't be alone because I'm not. I have kids and I'm not. I'm doing everything I can to create a life and build children that will become adults that are good to this world, that are good to the people of this world, that will build a life for themselves that, hopefully, is fulfilling to them and beneficial to society. And I don't believe that if you raise children properly and you do everything, you can give them a good life. I don't believe that they'll allow you to rot. That's my hope. That's my hope, but yeah, it's.
Speaker 3:It is absolutely chaos and it can be hard to find time for each other, but it's a choice. You have to do it. Like I said, I could go to work. I could go to work, work for 10 hours, get home after 12 hours, cook dinner, serve dinner, put the kids to bed and still, after all this, that's the decision.
Speaker 3:After all this, after a 16-hour day, the kids are finally in bed at 8.30. They never go to bed that ever, unless we went to the park and played for four hours, which doesn't have a work day. They go to bed and they bounce around for hours. So if we're lucky, they doesn't have my workday They'd go to bed and they'd bounce around for hours. So if we're lucky, they're asleep by 1030. And now we finally got some peace and quiet. We can chill till whatever, stay at 11. And now I'm looking at five and a half hours of sleep for work. So we just put the kids to bed and I go to bed and go to sleep. Or do I hang out with my wife and spend some quality time with her and I? Yeah that we can find each other again.
Speaker 2:No, that makes a lot of sense, Twice. It's all about not finding time right. It's about making time for the things that matters to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a silly little joke. You'll have plenty of time to speak with your dad.
Speaker 2:So, as a parent of multiple kids, how do you because you talked about this earlier too how love doesn't divide, but it multiplies Now how do you navigate that fine line between treating them and giving them time equally they each have different needs and different personalities and how do you nurture each child's unique identity?
Speaker 3:This one's hard.
Speaker 2:It's a work in progress. Parenting itself is such a tough job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's a work in progress. I know just the difference in not even just child to child, but just I mean sons and daughters is hard. I was raised a lot more in the with the conditioning that just deal with it. Just put it away and bury it and deal with it later. You know, right now, this is the task, right now, this. We're going this way and all that matters is that we go this way. I don't care if you're hurt, if you're sad, if you're whatever. We're going this way, so go deal with later kind of thing. Not that it not that I was old to be this way, not that I was trained to be this way. It was more of a lead by example, not a lot of emotion gone.
Speaker 3:I try and fail. Most times I feel like fail, but I try to teach my kids that there is, there's a time for it. Course you have to be able to talk and communicate and get things out and through the air, because as long as there's friction between us, most of the time, if there's something to do again, that's where I focus is how I was raised the job to get done, let's get the job. When we're done with the job, we can talk. For the most part that hasn't changed. I don't think it's a bad thing, unless you don't make time to talk about it later. If you've closed line of communication and you don't allow for that issue to be discussed later, then there's a problem. I think to be caste-oriented is good but of course, like I said, you have to build up a situation again later if there's a concern to talk about.
Speaker 3:Coming back to the daughters and sons thing for me, the biggest challenge for myself again, it comes back to the way I was raised and being a man. Get it done, we'll deal with it later. And with my daughters generally it's more emotional, it's more involved with how you're feeling and stuff. This comes right back to that whole atomic family.
Speaker 3:There's a reason why there's a mother and a father Fathers. They're that as daughters you help those daughters understand how to treat a woman, because the way your father and mother is the way that your man will treat you. There's age-old wisdom that says that a girl will find a man like her father and a boy will find a woman like her mother. As a father and mother, you better make sure that the example you're setting for how you treat your spouse is the way you would want your children's spouses to treat them. So maybe I don't have the real full involvement in my daughter's lives as far as emotionally being really emotionally involved in their life, their life Not that I can't, but my real critical involvement in their life is to show them how they should expect to be treated and loved.
Speaker 2:This is something I actually talk a lot about when I work with parents. A lot of parents I have worked with in the past would ask me what can I do to help my kids behave better or be a better parent? Then I would always tell them how is your relationship together? First, are you guys having a loving relationship? Because that example that you create is important, because kids learn through observations and they see that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they emulate what they see.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, when you talk about recognizing each child for their unique individuality, there's something said about a smaller family for the fact that you could have more one-on-one involvement with your children, with each child, as opposed to the challenge of having a big family, maybe feeling at times like you don't have or can't get enough involvement with each child individually. But I think then there's also that trade-off of independence. You only have a couple of children and you're constantly, always involved with them. At what point do you know when to let go and back off, allow them an individual, as opposed to when you have a large family and there's more of a challenge to make time. You have to choose to make time with each child. They will naturally become more independent or more cohesive as peers where your children will work together, where your children will work together and that creates this individuality, this independence, this understanding of how to work with fear, with sibling, with someone, like I said, with a fear that that's critical in the future as opposed to just being so dependent on a parent.
Speaker 2:So I'm glad that you brought that up and noticed that within your own family dynamic. I like that you gave that example, because the size of your family is very unique. I've been working with a lot of families with only one child and what I've been seeing is that child struggles to be independent. They actually become very codependent. It's like a failure to launch. They struggle to be adults and they struggle to take on responsibilities. So it makes sense what you're saying here.
Speaker 3:There's a large portion of it, too, that I experienced For myself. Like I said, I was one of seven and I was one of the elder ones, so I did get tasked with some babysitting and dealing with younger kids. But you, as a parent with a large family, you can still be very much involved in sheltering and overbearing in some ways with your kids. But making the choice to allow your older children, or giving your older children the responsibility to help out with the younger ones, to babysit them, trip to the grocery store, what have you?
Speaker 3:One thing that I've always tried to keep in mind when we talk about how I find not just raising children, trying to create productive, responsible adults, and so you have to give them the tools to become that, and in order to become that, they need to have responsibility, and that responsibility starts all the way from cleaning yourself to washing your hands, to picking up your toys. Then, as they get older, now you can have a chore You're responsible for some part of this household that you have to whatever, clear the table, wash dishes. It seems like such menial little stuff and I think sometimes maybe there's parents that don't feel like they should make their kids do that stuff, but it's critically important. You have to give your children responsibilities, so that that's part of becoming an adult.
Speaker 2:That makes a lot of sense. I can see how that would help. Now, what do you love?
Speaker 3:most about being a dad. The best part of being a dad is loving your children and being loved. Again, it really comes back to choice. You have to choose to put in the work, but you put in the time and the energy and the effort to love your children, know that you love all of them, and to love you back and want to hear that from you and want you to know they love this. I think that's the best partving your children and being loved back.
Speaker 3:Being a parent, being a father, being involved, disciplining Some people don't like discipline. It's necessary, all necessary. You have to love your children enough to discipline. You have to love your children enough to hold them to task when they're wrong. You really do. Again, it's about creating accessible, contributing adults in society, not about coddling and babying your children. You have to keep the end goal in mind. Of course, you have to remember their children. That's where I fail, that's where I fall short Remembering that they're children, remembering that they're not adults yet, that they need to be held to a standard that's reasonable because they're still children. And that's my biggest shortcoming in life is essentially forgetting that they're children and holding them to a standard that's nearly inescapable for them because they're children, they're not adults. So I love the chaos, I love my kids, I love my wife.
Speaker 3:We love the family trips. We try to do multiple trips a year, sometimes one big one. We've gone to arizona last three years family trip and it's chaos. You drive 24 hours to go visit family. It's chaos, chaos, but it's fun. It's amazing to stop and see the Grand Canyon. We went to these caves in Utah on the way back this last summer and it was beautiful. You got to climb up these cliffs more or less to get to these caves and I kind of watched 12 kids in these caves where there's no handrails and it's like you put all the ground. It was a little bit nerve wracking and, for whatever reason, in the moment I'm fine Staying on top of them, calling get away from the cliff, get Dublaine over here. Abner is keeping everybody here.
Speaker 3:And then when we got back to the hotel that night and I'm laying in bed trying to fall asleep, in my mind is replaying that situation, trying to fall asleep.
Speaker 3:In my mind it's replaying that situation, but in my mind my child is falling off the cliff and it's replaying over and over and over again.
Speaker 3:I can't fall asleep because the day's activities, as much fun as they were and as beautiful as it was, awesome as it was to be up in those cliffs with the kids, that one moment where Jublane was headed for the cliff and no one was there with him and I had to yell to get someone's attention and stop her out, came back my mind. He went over that cliff again and again again and it was just crushing for me to have to live and relive that and I don't know what it is, I don't know why it is. I still love it. I still wouldn't stay here for anything the pictures and the memories and that being there with the kids and for them getting to see it, even though in my mind, trying to go to sleep, reliving that fear over and over again, I wouldn't change it for anything. Chaos is crazy, but it's still worth it. Like I said, I don't know where that comes from, where that fear of what could have happened or might have happened.
Speaker 2:I can't even imagine having to even have that thought being replayed losing your child.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was pretty freaky. It's not going to stop anything. I'm not going to stop taking my children places and go on vacation. You still need that freedom and that time and that fun together. It just helps with the awareness that things can happen. You're out on a swivel and we're out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, zach, thanks for your honesty. It's nice to hear that, even at this point in your life, after having 12 kids, that it's okay to not have everything figured out because you're still a work in progress as a dad, as a person. It's never ending, yep it never ends.
Speaker 3:We're always learning. We stop learning, you start dying.
Speaker 2:Growing, you start dying. Next section I wanted to talk about men's mental health and masculinity, because I feel like men's mental health has been overlooked. Masculinity, because I feel like men's mental health has been overlooked and even though it has improved over the years, it's still often overshadowed by many other issues. Interesting fact is that all around the world, women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and more likely to attempt suicide, yet men dying by suicide is still several times higher than women. Men dying by suicide is still several times higher than women, and I believe the real problem here is that men are much less likely to seek help. They internalize a lot of their problems, which is why men are more likely to be violent and have suicidal intent, because they're not talking about it. They're suffering in silence, and it's no surprise that there is a lot of stigma that still exists for men, even more so in modern society Confusion around the idea of masculinity.
Speaker 2:I work with young boys and the idea around masculinity is almost like night and day. Sometimes the older population that I work with tends to have a clearer acceptance of what it means to be a man, and then, when I work with younger boys, they're often confused and almost ashamed of themselves. The stigma often makes them less likely to even want to talk about anything at all. I believe that the conversation around men's mental health is currently shifting. I believe one of the ways to change this for the better is to empower men to speak out and share their stories, as this provides an example for vulnerability, and I think we need more examples of this from people just like you and me. It's about just elevating the stories of men and what they experience. So my question to you is how do you create space for emotional expression to combat against emotional suppression, because that's something that a lot of men struggle with. They suppress too much of their emotions, which is the leading cause of many men's mental health issues.
Speaker 3:What caused my mind is normalized feeling. We all have feelings, it's okay. It's okay to be sad. I think I feel like most times maybe it's just for myself, but I doubt it. I think most times when we feel emotions as men because of the stigmas, instead of experiencing that emotion or trying to place that emotion and deal with that, oftentimes we just get angry that we're feeling something we can't recognize. Just get angry that we're feeling something we can't recognize. Like you said, there are more likely to be violent than have suicidal intent. I really think that's what it is.
Speaker 3:Instead of exploring what you're feeling it sounds so foreign and flowery to a lot of men but explore your emotions, and that's not like we want you to go sit in a field of daisies and think about it. It's just that you need to learn to recognize what you are dealing with, what you're feeling, what you're going through. Have some grace for yourself. Have some understanding. Allow yourself to be okay with not knowing. Allow yourself to understand that you don't have to have the answer. You don't have to know everything. It's okay to say I don't have to have the answer. You don't have to know everything. It's okay to say I don't know what I'm feeling. I don't know what this is. I don't have the answer for this.
Speaker 3:I think that too often we just get mad, we just get angry because you don't know what it is, or it's foreign to you, or you don't want to feel sad or you don't want to feel offended. I'm not Everybody's offended. Nowadays. Everybody wants to be offended, everybody wants to be validated, and that can make it even harder. That can make it even harder that that you don't want to be just another person who's offended by everything. But we have to know, we have to respect, we have to love ourselves, we have to yeah, I think you just we need to have, be able to have that open dialogue, communication. Find someone that you can talk to. You better have a friend. Yeah, you better have a friend that you can talk to. I have a really good friend that I can vent to and and my wife. I can talk to my wife about almost everything.
Speaker 3:But again, there's times. There is times, and there will be times, when I'm frustrated and venting to my wife isn't the answer, because I might be venting about her. You just never know. There may be times when I got to call my buddy just because I got to vent about her and what I'm going to say and what's going to come out of my mouth is nothing but poison. And I know sometimes people say just don't even let that negativity come out of your mouth. I don't know, I don't quite agree with that.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes you got to get it out, you got to vent it. If you got to get it out, go find a tree in the middle of the woods and I don't know, just get it out. Don't keep it in, don't internalize it, don't bottle it up. We just have to make time, though. I've noticed here that if you can find a way, you also. You can put a bookmark in it.
Speaker 3:If you're going to yourself and you're trying to get it done, maybe right in the middle of whatever you're doing, whether it's a task or a job or a chore or something, maybe that's not the time to have a discussion about what you're feeling or what you're feeling Sometimes it just isn't. There's times when something has to be done and you have to focus on getting it done. There would be some way that you could just put a pin in it and don't forget about it, whether it's put a note on your phone, whatever it is and just yeah, stay with it for later. Being a man is much more complex than the world wants to make it today. Maybe it comes back to that whole balance thing.
Speaker 2:I do think it's important that we do come back to the things that bothers us, like you said. I think what you said about putting a bookmark on it and then go back to it later and when you feel like you have the right mindset to deal with it. That's something that a lot of us struggle with, because if we don't come back to it, it can operate under the radar, can project in other ways Life is messy, what we do with it and how we interpret it and try to make sense of it and organize it.
Speaker 2:Has your perspective of being a man changed over the years, as you transitioned from being a young boy and then becoming an adult, and then from a husband to finally being a father? Has your idea of masculinity and being a man changed throughout those years?
Speaker 3:I don't I don't think there's one path, my, my perspective on being a man when you're a boy, you do stupid things. When you're a child we talked about that teenage thing. When you're a teenager and they say a two to three year old range is generally a pretty good glimpse of how your child is going to be as a teenager. As far as the disconnects, the silly things they do in their attitude and stuff, and we we have open conversations with our boys, our teenage boys as they get older and then the girls too, that that there's this transition in the mind body as you go through puberty and become a teenager that things don't. I think it was explained to me once when we tell our kids like things don't, like synapses don't work right, they don't fire right and there's disconnect and so you'll do something, just to do it with no thought of what, what's going to, why you're doing it. You just do and then you wind up having to deal with consequences. And is that the right thing to do? Is it right to tell our kids that their brain is essentially short-circuiting and misfiring? I don't know. Sometimes it seems maybe we shouldn't because they can be upset about it when they do dumb things without thinking, but then other times I feel like them, recognizing that's what they just did is probably a good thing. I don't know, I don't have all the answers and my perspective on it. Of course it's changing, constantly changing, because I'm seeing my kids go through what I went through and trying to recognize what they're going through, relating it to how I was when I went through it and trying to help them see and navigate the pitfalls of what they could deal with or might deal with. And I had a pretty rough road really most of the mistakes I made and the pain from it. I've made a lot of mistakes I think we all have. I know there's time and place for me to share those mistakes with them and for me to try to give them the best wisdom I can possibly give them as far as what I did, how it went wrong, what the consequence of it was and what they could do to not fall into the same pitfalls I did or the same mistakes I did. I think yeah, I think that perspective should always be changing. Perspective doesn't necessarily change the goal. I think the goal has to stay the same. Obviously, the goal is to create upstanding citizens in this world, but every path is different. Everyone's path is different. Everyone's experience is different. Path is different, everyone's experience is different. Our children are us in as much as they are themselves individually. So we have to realize and recognize their traits or our traits in them that we can help navigate. Again, not overshadowing and not you can see their launch situation, allowing them to go through it, but trying to be there to help guide.
Speaker 3:I have a friend that told me that he was having a discussion with one of his boys and the way he explained it I thought was really good. He said that in this stage in life, as long as you're home and you're not an adult yet, I cannot be your friend Because that's not my job. My job is to be your father. My job is to try to guide you and help through life, to figure out who you are and where you're going. It's not until you're an adult that we can be friends. I thought that was really good. He stated simply this that right now I can't be your friend. It's not my job. My job is to be your dad. But in the future, once you're an adult, we can be friends.
Speaker 2:Looking back on journey through marriage, parenting and navigating the complexities of trust and temptations. What's one piece of advice or lesson you've learned that you'd like to share with the listeners, something that has consistently brought positivity and growth in your life?
Speaker 3:That's a lot of stuff to bring into one piece. It's probably I always have to say probably the one that's the hardest for me and that's to have grace and forgiveness for yourself and for others. I think so Because I know I struggle. I struggle with my own faults and failings and sins so that I commit to force others and myself and my own soul, but especially for others, and myself and my own soul, but especially for others, because there's whether it's someone I work with, whether it's one of my own siblings, even someone I work for it's pretty hard, pretty hard sometimes to have grace for people, not even just yourself. Like I said, I have a hard time. I have a hard time having grace for people not even just yourself.
Speaker 3:Like I said, I have a hard time having grace for myself, things I've done in my life and the way I've wronged people. And, on that same topic, when someone's not handling you with grace or forgiveness, it's hard to deal with. It's really hard to deal with and I've experienced it quite a bit that when someone doesn't have grace or forgiveness for you, the amount of pain it causes. And, as we've stated before a lot of times, when we feel emotions, I feel as men, when we feel emotions, instead of trying to understand that and comprehend what it is and intellectually break it down and figure out what we can do with it or fix it, we just get angry. That's not the right answer, because I know for myself, when someone handles me with anger or with poise and they want to hate me for what I've done, that creates a lot of anger in me. So if you're to flip the script on that and see where you yourself or where I have treated people that way and then realize that, okay, when I'm treated that way, it makes me feel like this why on earth am I treating them that way and expecting any disrespect?
Speaker 3:Finding that grace and forgiveness in yourself to deal with someone in a situation like that or to forgive them for the wrong that they've committed to you? It could be difficult, like I said, I've had siblings that I've had co-workers, even a boss before that I've struggled to deal with or struggled to work with, and I think it would be grace and forgiveness to have that when you can just let it go. Really, you know, have that gracious forgiveness to understand that you don't understand where they're coming from because you're not them and you don't understand why they may mistrust you or mistreat you, or you just have to. You can only do it.
Speaker 3:You can't change other people. You can only do you can't change other people. So you're just. You're not going to gain anything by being upset about something you can't change and you can't force other people to change. So at some point you have to realize this and have the grace to just keep doing the best you can on your own and hopefully with you showing them that grace. And and have the grace to just keep doing the best you can on your own and hopefully, with you showing them that grace, you'll allow things to change.
Speaker 2:Hopefully they'll see that difference in you and it will repair itself Well. Zach, thank you so much for joining me today and taking time off for your day with your family to do this with me, and it's an honor.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:I love you brother.
Speaker 3:I love you too, man.
Speaker 2:All right, zach, you take care of yourself, okay. Signing off.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in to Mind Manners with Albert Nguyen. We hope you found value in this episode. If you'd like to work with Albert one-on-one, visit OptiMindCounselingcom to learn more about his private practice. Looking to join a community of like-minded individuals, search Mind Manners Podcast Community on Facebook and join our group to connect with others on their wellness journeys. Finally, if you haven't already done so, please write us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and let us know you're enjoying the show.
