Mind Manners
Mind Manners
Zack Byman: 17 Years of Marriage & 12 Kids Later, Part 1
Picture sitting across from your partner, delving into the depths of their past relationships. How would that conversation go? My friend Zack and I take this tricky topic head-on in a riveting discussion about retroactive jealousy and long-term marriage. We unlock the doors to Zack's marriage journey of 17 years, dissect the trials, and uncover the triumphs.
Ever had moments where you're teetering between jealousy and trust in a relationship? Well, Zack and I don't shy away from this emotional terrain either. We demystify the complexities of jealousy, trust, and relationships - from the loneliness epidemic among American men to the effects of social media. And let's not forget about the age-old wisdom and principles that can mitigate jealousy and bridge trust issues.
But we don't stop there. We also dig into the art of compromise and the significance of balance in relationships. You'll hear firsthand how Zack's marital experiences have taught him the value of seeing things from his partner's perspective. No stone goes unturned as we also discuss open communication, vulnerability, and the role of forgiveness in restoring trust. So grab your headphones, and brace yourself for an enlightening journey into the intricacies of relationships. This is PART 1 of a 2-Part Interview.
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The older I get and the more I know who I am and what I stand for, the smaller my social circle gets and as I learn more about people, the varnish fades. But my guest today is someone very special and dear to my heart. His name is Zachary, or Zach, byman. This is someone I have known for over 20 years. I consider him one of my closest and longtime friends, perhaps my only friend. That spans through several decades and chapters of my life and though we went in different directions after high school, our values keep intersecting to bring us back together. Since that time, after high school, he has gone into the workforce, got married, started a family and created a career for himself. He's got an amazing wife with whom he has 12 beautiful, amazing kids. They are his world. He considers himself a child of God first, a husband, a father and a family man second. So let's give.
Speaker 2:Zach, a warm welcome. You're listening to Mind Manners, hosted by licensed psychotherapist Albert Nguyen. Albert helps his clients overcome past trauma, change their mindset and accelerate their personal and professional development. This podcast covers a wide range of mental health and self-development topics, with each episode offering an actionable step towards a better you. If you're on a wellness journey, keep listening.
Speaker 1:Now one of the main reasons why I wanted to interview you was because you got blessed with 12 kids to the same wife, and that is nothing short of a miracle, because I don't see that often anymore. I don't see people the same partner for a very long time. So how long have you been married?
Speaker 3:The last month was 17 years. 17 years, congrats.
Speaker 1:Thank you. That is amazing. How has your perspective on marriage evolved over the years and what would you say are the key ingredients to a successful, fulfilling marriage?
Speaker 3:I don't feel like my perspective on marriage has changed as far as fundamentals go. Still, the commitment that you make forever, it's intended to be forever. It always was forever. And for myself I can remember ever since I was a kid, I wanted to be a dad. That was one of my biggest things. Obviously, I think this has been stated that my faith is first my family and myself, second and all else after that. So for myself, I wanted to be a dad. Of course, I wanted a life partner forever. As far as maybe in ways that it's changed in some ways, I feel like maybe when I first met my wife, we started to date and then considered marriage, got married.
Speaker 3:There were definitely times when I didn't feel like she was my best friend, which is hard to say, but it would probably be. I'd say like this is crazy. But 14 years into it, before I really realized how I knew she was the most important person in my life, I started for myself, but the attachment and how strong that was, how much I needed it, didn't really hit me hard until we were supposed to go to the gym I've all think together one night and she was feeling not feeling well and I came home and I was jacked up, ready to go to the gym and she tells me I just don't feel good tonight, I'm not going to go. And I was just deflated, just completely deflated. I didn't even want to go to the gym anymore. And it was like, like I said, I knew she was the most important person in my life. I knew that she was my everything. I'd rather die than lose her.
Speaker 3:But such a silly little thing is not feeling well enough to go to the gym with me. That night Just deflated me and it just was very eye-opening to me that it was huge, way bigger than I don't want to say just my wife, but you know it was like she'd become. I didn't even want to go to the gym without her. I didn't like that's big. It's not to say that I didn't know that before. It was just, I guess, more of an example of when it hit me or the way it hit, because we'd gone on little vacations together, obviously many times before that gone hiking and camping and stuff, and they're the best vacations, the best trips, the best getaways of my lifetime To date. Obviously, the next one will be even better and the next one better than that.
Speaker 1:But I think, especially with things with social media, these days a lot of people only see like the happy moments, like their filtered life, and people don't really see the thought of work that has to be done to get from point A to point B. Hearing that you've been married for this long, I can only imagine all the things that you have gone through, and I really hope that we do a deep dive in some of these things. I mean, I do have some very tough questions that I know that we're going to be tackling Within the past few years that men's mental health has been resurfacing and it's been made more known to people that it's so important that we as men need to talk more about some of the things that we struggle with, because there is definitely some unique things that, from a men's perspective, that is not commonly spoken about. So one of those themes is that I see a lot with the men that I work with is that they struggle with retroactive jealousy, this feeling of being threatened by their partner's past relationships and sexual experiences, and it's not often talked about openly and society can make it difficult for a lot of men to want to talk about this.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of shame and stigma around this and, as if we're crazy to even care. People may even see this as unhealthy. Now, it's a shame that this is the case. Some studies actually even point out that there seems to be a strong correlation between a happier marriage and fewer sex partners, meaning people who have had sex with fewer people seem to be more satisfied. After they tied a knot In the Duterno of marriage and family, they found that both men and women tend to see high sexual experience peers as less desirable for marriage. So I guess I just want to hear your thoughts and experience with retroactive jealousy. Does it matter? Does it impact desirability and connection? And if it does, how did you work through it? What is that like when you first met your wife?
Speaker 3:Oh boy.
Speaker 1:I know we're just jumping straight in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, go right into it. I guess in a lot of ways I've always been well, everyone's different, but for myself, my difference was that I was raised completely different than my life was.
Speaker 3:So, my world was a nuclear family with a father and mother and siblings. I have six siblings and my parents still married today, so we had the whole dynamic of a full family unit and my wife was raised by her mom, single mother. She has three sisters and her experience in life was a little more multi-bus, a little bit more uncertain A lot of people in and out, kind of blended families, if you will, but not always married families, sometimes friends living with them and stuff. So a whole different life. But I, for whatever reason, growing up I didn't want to marry someone like myself, as much as that, as much as I can describe it. So I was raised very, very strict, really structured life and so I had no experience really in that realm, as to say, with other partners.
Speaker 3:My wife, being raised completely different, had been in relationship prior to mine and for some reason in my life growing up I never wanted someone that was, as that was, inexperienced, like myself. I don't know why, I can't explain or describe it, maybe you could probably tell me more about me than I know about me as far as that goes. But I didn't want someone that was inexperienced and I was inexperienced. Maybe that's why. So, when I met my wife and we started dating, she was more in line with what I wanted and thankfully she has a heart and a soul like mine in the way that she was a person of faith, even if she was and been raised with a lot of faith. That makes sense. So I was definitely curious for quite a while when we were dating, especially, I was curious and I would question and kind of needle her about her past, and it took me quite a while to understand that the past and especially for a lot of us it didn't need to stay there. And so I did.
Speaker 3:I actually did damage, being nosy and questioning about it, and so it took me a while to realize that that was a whole different life, that was a whole different person and I need to let it go, forget about it, because we were building something new and beautiful and we were building our life and I just had to just let it go. It was, it was not worth it. So does it matter? The question is it doesn't matter. Yeah, because if you as a man or woman, whichever, if you get over it and can't let it go, you will destroy that. You'll destroy every relationship you have if you can't let the past go because, yeah, it's a new life.
Speaker 3:Every single time you, a new relationship starts, it's supposed to be its own thing, its own living thing. It is like the, the Bible space and, I'm sure, several religions and and texts about marriage and life together. You become one you in the Bible is faced with you, the mother and father, and become one with your spouse. So you definitely have to get to that point where you are understanding and realizing that you're building your life and your past life have nothing to do with.
Speaker 3:I think that jealousy itself can be good for sure. If there's a little bit of that point that your woman's all dressed up and looking good and you're a little bit jealous because feuds are looking like, that's not a bad thing because it's going to make you step up a little more. Maybe you puck the chest out a little bit and you're ready to go because that's your woman, no one else messing with her. That's fine. You're looking especially good. You got this, you're just sitting just right, or the shirt and maybe jeans are just getting good and your wife noticing girls looking and she's getting jealous. So that's a good thing because she's ready to go, she's ready to make sure that she's the only one used so.
Speaker 1:I like what you said, that it's about starting something new and trying to get to that place to accept that this is the past and trying to leave things in the past and recognizing that this creation that you're starting with your significant other or your girlfriend or partner or boyfriend.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a living thing. Yeah, because you have your life and she has her life and together you're creating a new life. It's, yeah, it's completely new. It's a whole new living thing. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I think that's beautiful. So we obviously can't talk about retroactive jealousy without talking about everyday jealousy, which you sort of tapped in a little bit. So there are several studies indicating that cheating is more common than we like to admit. In fact, one study found that with the ease and access of technology these days to get connected with others, temptations and sneaking around has have become a lot easier. A study found that infidelity rates among women are actually on the rise and, I believe, by 40% in the last 20 years.
Speaker 1:For women, it's an important topic and issue to talk about Trust, setting boundaries, values and honesty.
Speaker 1:Dating and relationship have vastly changed over the years because of social media and online dating, and more and more studies are now showing that there is a loneliness epidemic among American men.
Speaker 1:More and more young men are single and the popular theory about this is because men are getting the needs met through porn. And another theory is that both genders are perceiving each other as less desirable and we're exposed to images of about a thousand in the matter of minutes now, and I think the young men today are more and more intimidated by women. I think it's also because a lot of men are afraid to be criticized as misogynists. The women's movements and women's rights have definitely improved over the years and for some reason it just seems like men's mental health and men's issues have just sort of been pushed to the back burner. But I guess the question here is from personal experience Are there any old age, timeless wisdom and principles of relationships Do you think that are important to share, that can mitigate jealousy and trust issues and ultimately we establish and revive and even save the one sacred institution of marriage and love?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this question you kind of alluded to it. It's it's a hot button, hot topic and, yes, it definitely Triggers some people. So you said something real quick that I don't think I Touched on, but you talked about women's rights becoming much better and that is like met, as women have gained more far as rights and Position. To me it's not weird to see Men's side of it in a way getting worse, like you stated to. You just talk about it here. Actually, we see that there's loneliness epidemic and so there's a balance. There's always got to be balanced and a give and take in everything. So if we go back I don't know what it would be 20, 30, 40 years to where men ruled the house and women had no rights. That's, we're out of balance, right? Yeah, absolutely. So today we're coming into a position where women have more rights. If we go too far, we get point where men have no rights and that's not good. So of course we're gonna have an epidemic, men, if women have too much and I know that people could get offended by that Well, you can't have too much. Yeah, you can, because in the past, when it was the other way, where men had everything of them had nothing. It was bad for women. So you, there has to be a balance always and we have to get to a point where we can Realize that and accept that as a society and as cultures, that there's a give and take, that you can't have all the rights and I can't have all the rights. We have to share. At some point we have to share.
Speaker 3:So as far as age old, timeless wisdom, like I said, let's figure a hot button topic. The biggest one I see is, thankfully for myself, I was able to experience as a child growing up, and that's the nuclear family unit other father children I know people want to bash on that because you have the freedom to love who you want, but how you want. You do absolutely. But you have to realize and understand that there will be sacrifice. No matter what you do in life, there will be a cost. There's always cost for what you want and if what you want is Contrary to what science and what facts prove to be the best way to Raise a family, create a family, build a family, there's a cost to it and you'll have to find some way to mitigate it or pay for it. There's no other way around. You can't change facts. We have to find a way to Fulfill what nature needs for nature or proper.
Speaker 3:I've seen a lot more pop up through social media about groups of Men that are creating kind of like men's group or they'll have men's retreats and men's I don't know what else. Tom of Henry programs camps where men go to kind of rediscover themselves, to figure out why their life is failing or their marriage is failing or still. On the blank it's a big deal and I know it is because it's easy to lose sight of and the daily grind that there's so much emphasis put on on Success, building your legacy, build your fortune, build your this and that and and, rather than build a life. People are now mistakenly thinking that the building this legacy and this company and this fortune is fulfillment. It's not. It will be to a point until you're alone and miserable.
Speaker 1:Let's go back to talking more about your own personal experience, because I feel like there's just so much that we can talk about your marriage, because 17 years is a long time. So can you describe a moment in your marriage when you've had to confront a significant difference of opinion or value your partner? How did you navigate that situation and what did it teach you about? About compromise and understanding?
Speaker 3:for me. I was raised, like I said, in a pretty structured household to when I spent a lot of years at the beginning of our marriage pretending that the messy house didn't bother me. I would just kind of, oh whatever, it's fine. Whatever it's fine, I'm just happy to be home with you, it's fine. It wasn't compromised and it wasn't understanding. It was puppy love. I guess the best way I could think to explain it and just ignoring, trying to, yeah, just ignore it and it didn't exist, yeah, I'm home and focus on my life.
Speaker 3:And then, shortly after our baby those times, so, as I stayed before, my wife was raised by a single mom and Cleaning was way down on the phone and, for instance, it was for her, it was come home and spend time with her daughters, just live life.
Speaker 3:So that wasn't a bad thing, necessarily. I think it was a good thing for me to to try to understand that, rather than always focus on what, what wasn't clean or what wasn't done, maybe refocus a little more on the fact that there's people here and there's feelings and a messy house isn't the end of everything. But I didn't communicate this to my wife for a long time and it did drive me nuts, because I just shortly relatively shortly left home and going from a clean house. Constantly when I was a kid, if our house wasn't clean or part scores weren't done, I had the answer. Whether that was an explanation or an honest friend that was, there would be an answer or a reckoning. So it was different and we finally talked about it and when I find the issue, I saw or learned about her mom's Idea on it and that was, like I said, eye-opening. So it was just kind of something we had to come through and Figure out what was acceptable for us in our life and then, as the children came, then it's like a multiplier on mess.
Speaker 1:It sounds like that conversation led to you Understanding more about where she was coming from and then sort of find a balance or compromise that would work out for your marriage.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yep, and, like I said, once we start bringing kids into the mix it it won't bother blogging.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we'll definitely be talking about your kids. What, what role do open communication and vulnerability Play in maintaining your healthy and lasting relationship?
Speaker 3:Communication creates a vision. You want things to run smoothly or to work out. You have and we go through that with our boys, because our two oldest boys Teenagers and as I'm sure you know from experience, both going through it yourself and then working with them, a professional, as a professional helping teenage boys and stuff that there's this great divide between between common sense and what they do, because there's like a Disconnect. So, yes, so communication in life huge and in marriage, especially if you don't. Well, I mean, it's simple, if you don't tell someone what you need, they can't, you can never get it because they don't know it's good. So there has to be communication, there has to be I feel like this I want this, I don't want that, I need this, I need that. I don't like that. You have to let that stuff be known because otherwise A lot of problems can chaos.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, and you mentioned vulnerability in this. Yeah, it's back to this really relates, especially as a man. As you spend more time Learning your partner, you can learn how to balance that out, because there are times, absolutely there are times, when you need to be that Untethered, testosterone filled anum that your spouse needs your wife, and then there's times when you Be that tender hearted shoulder, cry on and you're listening, you know. Then there's times when you go out dinner that you need to be cast over, that pulls it, care out for and let's sit down and weights on our hand or foot, and then sometimes we need to be that Joker. You know the guy's making a fool of himself. So you have to learn all that stuff and that's communication. You know when the other one stands. Yeah, then you have to. You just have to talk and you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable.
Speaker 3:There's definitely times when when I've had to open up to my wife and let her inside, and it's not easy. It's not easy because sometimes I know it's just the human thing, but for myself as a man, sometimes I feel like what's inside here is, and can be, so dark and it's like sometimes you find a spot in there that's so black. You're like boy, if she saw this, there's no way, there's no way she'd run away screaming yeah. And the truth is the truth most times is that if you truly open up and allow her inside, there there becomes a bond that's so tight, wow, that's so strong, that she wants nothing more than to heal that part of you, because what you see as black, that's evil. She sees as a broken boy. Then that was powerful, so that I've been there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I felt that there's just this part of us.
Speaker 3:Oh, I feel like you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's this part of us. I think it's hard to be seen with some of these parts of us, and when we allow ourselves to be seen fully and completely, especially with people who cares about us, I can only imagine how deep of a connection that would be if you let that guard go. Yeah, zach, what's coming up for you right now about this?
Speaker 3:Just a realization. Ron's learning. Like you messed with me the other day, spain and you were looking forward to this day hearing. So my wisdom and my response to you is not so certain. If you stop looking, you're never going to find it, and I had a feeling. I was sure that this was going to be pretty. I knew it was going to be good. This was your suggestion of questions, first of all, and then, you know, I've been through some stuff.
Speaker 3:You've been through some stuff. We've known each other for a lot of years and, yeah, at some point it was definitely, it was bound to get real. And I think in that statement there, those words that were given to me that I'm close to, the revelation to myself to you is will you go through in life or will you experience as a child, there's that brokenness inside you. There's poems and writings and books that get the words perfect. That's perfectly. But there's one line that comes to me. I don't know if it's a song I heard at some point, but Lady says if I could touch this place or feel it, brokenness inside me might start here. Wow, it's a good line. Yeah, it's true, you don't uncover it. You don't dig up that blackness, so you want to under there. That's actually the problem. You have to allow someone in or allow light to be exposed on it so that you can open it and see what's inside there. Maybe that's what I hit. Maybe there's something in my chest that's a little bit broken.
Speaker 1:That part of you needed was neglected to sound like and you allowed someone in. Yeah, yeah, but, zach, thank you for sharing that, because these are very hard questions. Yeah, are you ready for the next one?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're good. This is like we talked about. It needs to be done. There's a lot here and it's worth doing. It needs to be done. It doesn't matter if it's hard. Fuck up, buttercup, go through, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:All right, do it. Most of my patients I have a few right now that comes to mind, and I have to say that about 80% of the men I've worked with and the other 20%, they all have considered of either cheating or that you have done it. It's no surprise that infidelity is often the root cause of many relationships falling apart. To define, I guess, cheating.
Speaker 1:For this session, I have come to accept that this is where all cheating takes place. It's when the partners begin to become sneaky and secretive in their interactions with others outside of their committed relationship, and many of my patients describe cheating as on a spectrum of emotional and sexual, and sometimes starting as very subtle and emotional before it even becomes physical Now. So it's about crossing and violating a sacred boundary or a code in your committed relationship. Now, temptations are a part of human nature. I understand that. So, speaking as a man, how have temptations tested your commitment to your relationship and do you have any advice that you've learned through, any wisdom and insight that you've gained throughout the years for other men out there, yeah, I think that well, I know for everyone, man and women.
Speaker 3:But as far as that goes, I know you touched on pornography, being probably a big contributor to the issue not with men, well, and women both. But I know firsthand that pornography is extremely damaging. Temptations are everywhere. And if you don't have an open-eyed communication with your partner to talk about these things, or an open-eyed communication for her to come to you and just ask her, hey, how are things going? Because as much as you know your weaknesses, she does or should she, should she better know your weaknesses. You have to have that open communication with her so she understands and knows this. Because your weaknesses, I mean they're your weaknesses for a reason. So if it's your weakness that you would fall into this trap or this sin or this unhealthy addiction or temptation to go Find some source of pornography or fantasy that feels you, how likely are you to go talk about that week your weakness in the first place, or something that that fills a part of you, that that generally you would consider to be disgusting, so naturally wouldn't want to talk about it. You're ashamed of it, yes, so if you have this openness and communication trust with each other, she likewise will be able to come to you and ask you about it. So or maybe bring it up on occasion, thinking about it, that thought or concern or care for you, that she would be able to ask about it. So, as I was saying, from experience I know that pornography is extremely damaging. I've had to deal with my whole life. Unfortunately, I was exposed to To that very young, and it's warping. It warps our mind. It really does. It's extremely damaging. It sexualizes your life, your, your views on men and women and and everything's surrounding it. To have that burden such a young age and make for a really hard life, tips run out there. I Battle it, just like the rest of you. It's the daily battle in society today, with the Direction and a lot of things head in what's acceptable, clothing, wise, what's acceptable and Public displays of affection, pda on and on, and on billboards, posters, advertisements, everything. There's been a phrase or slogan forever and advertising sex spells True, because there's a carnal side of us that that's attracted to it. So it's not getting easier now for sure. Yeah, getting easier. You got to find a way to battle it. You got to find a way to fight it. I don't really know the answer.
Speaker 3:I was in a position in years ago where I was pretty hooked on it. Be completely Honest, I was, I guess, addicted pornography. I probably looked at it almost daily and it literally got to the point where if I couldn't visualize some fantasy in my mind, it's hard to perform and that's scary. That is really scary. If you think about that just openly and honestly In your relationship and you're married or nice, especially where you have spouse, that you are, it's your job.
Speaker 3:For them, that's a Connection on a level that's it's not even just physical, it gets into spiritual. I believe absolutely that relationship and those moments get spiritual. Yeah, and if you've got yourself so twisted up in the fantasy world you can't even make that action. There's just no hope. Killing it. It's bad, it's super, super bad to allow yourself into those places and then, once you start allowing those fantasies and that again the pornography.
Speaker 3:Usually it's all about fantasies. If you don't communicate that, you can look for it else, but as soon as you start looking elsewhere, you will find it and you're gonna get lost. Yeah, and she think that's usually where it's going to wind up Some way. She perform, wind up, looking for elsewhere. And the craziest thing is that I've discovered, and I've talked to several other men about it too If you just open your dang mouth and talk to her about it or just bounce about it 99 times out of 100 what I've seen they are willing to fill your fantasies with. They would rather be the one that does what you want them to do. Then go find us somewhere else or look it up the deal to open your mouth.
Speaker 1:There's some powerful lessons here. The common theme here is Communication. That's usually when the problem starts. Right is when we keep it a secret. We try to fill that void with other things, and that's when we create issues for ourselves. We just have to talk about it. Yeah, and that's hard, but that is the solution.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they can be 38 years To figure some of this out. I mean, there's things that that I wasn't able to talk about until I was over 35 years old, literally, you know. Just, they're so like a talk about. There's like this black mask inside you of something you went through, something you've been through, that is so, so damaging to you that you can't, like I said, 35 years, 35 years. Let someone else know what I've been through, what created this monster inside of that that I had just been shoving in the closet and trying to keep close for, like I said, 35 years in bits. I, yeah, communicate, talk about it, get it out.
Speaker 1:So, speaking about this too, about temptations and issues around that, we also understand that trust is a very fragile thing. A lot of people struggle with trust and it takes a lot of time and effort to build and rebuild, but can quickly shatter in an instant. What's your process been like in years of marriage and relationship when it comes to healing, building and rebuilding trust?
Speaker 3:Forgiveness it's one word. Forgiveness, one word. But it's the hardest thing in the world to do so.
Speaker 1:I definitely understand that's what needs to be done, like that's the important work. What does that look like?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so what I actually wrote down here in my notes is that forgiveness is the mortar of the brick to build. I love that. So because, yeah, definitely it comes back to communication again. You have to talk about it. You have to talk about what you've done or what's been done to you that's caused this pain or that's fractured the bond, especially when it comes to relationship in marriage Generally, when there's an issue like this that needs to be forgiven, there's been some damage to the relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the hardest I believe the hardest is to say it first, that confession, to come out and admit that you've screwed up. Or sometimes it's the other way around. Sometimes it's something they've done Definitely. I've been through that too, from both sides. Sometimes I've found it harder to me to say you did this or you did that and it really hurt because it may come back to that. That whole thing is being a man showing that vulnerability that you don't want to. I think for a lot of guys I'm no exception for me to say that, whatever I mean. For example, last night or the other day you're over here doing this or with these people and I said this.
Speaker 3:Your response to me was this that really hurt as a man. I think that's something hard for us to come to terms with. That. You would actually tell your wife that she said something that hurt you. A lot of people are like really your wife hurt your feelings really. But it's real, absolutely yes, it's real. There could be and there have been myself. I can admit there have been a couple of times where I've expressed something myself and stated it, and I mean sometimes even it's just perceived response to it. I come to find out later that that wasn't the intended response. It was the way I perceived it. Again, I miscommunication. I opened up about something. There was a response to it and the response was not improper. But the way I perceived it in the moment was it hit me wrong and it hurt To be able to be strong enough or vulnerable enough to say that that hurt can be a lot. It seems silly, but it's true.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's a challenge for a lot of people. It is a vulnerability. It takes a certain level of humility to do that and that's tough.
Speaker 3:It is especially in the sense that, being a listener, I know for a fact a lot about this, especially as you're given a profession. I like to joke around a little bit. This is a little bit kind of cheeky, but I'm just a miller. I just fix machines. This isn't really my forte, but you have to listen and the listening is like I said, I fix machines, I don't listen to people, I listen to machines. But that's not true. I've been with my seven years twelve kids, so I have to learn to listen to the point, but I'm not.
Speaker 3:I won't find it to be good at it. You have to listen, you have to listen, and a lot of times communication is all about listening. If someone's trying to talk to you or communicate with you, you better shut up. Like they say. You got one mouth and two ears. You better use my mouth, and that's it. I know if I'm not going to listen to her, she's unlikely to listen to me. And that's where it all starts. If you can talk or she's going to talk, better listen. So commitment.
Speaker 1:So 17 years, that's no joke. So commitment obviously comes with a price that many aren't afraid of. What is that price to a committed relationship, and is that price worth it?
Speaker 3:The wording, the quality of the price, I think is not right. Is your your putting? It's almost like you're trying to monetize, not monetize, like you're relating it to a monetary transaction. I don't know, it just seems it just makes you feel cheap. I don't think there's a price. I don't think it's like it's a given take.
Speaker 3:You know it's like like bartering. It's like, yeah, the relationship isn't, isn't the cost. Cost is is what you pay for the store. Cost is is driving a car for 20 years. Cost is is where and there on something, the relationship is the office building. It doesn't wear out, it doesn't. It's not like a devaluation Now, like price or monetary transaction. Yeah, cost is something cost of of you operating your vehicle for 20 years. You have to put fuel in it and new parts and all these things. That has a cost to it. But a relationship there's no cost. You're building something that's going to invest.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's like bartering or like having a tab or an IOU, but you never plan on collecting it anyway, because it's always. It's just a constant give and take. As much as you give them that you could even think of them owing you, for they've given right back to you. So it's just this constant, constant exchange of time and value that never if you do it right and you're both committed to never get out it just grows. It's like counting your blessings. You write them all down on a paper. It's good. It's good in your life versus bad in your life.
Speaker 3:When you get done, inevitably there's four pages to good and one page bad. It's not like you're trying to do a list of who does more than the other one. It's like you're always trying to do more. You're always trying to give more and be more and do more. I think there was a statement or a phrase for a long time it's 50-50. And recently, within the last couple of years, there's kind of a new take on it where it's like no, it's not 50-50. Because if you're only giving 50%, that's not good enough. It's 100-100. You have to give 100%, she has to give 100%. If you don't give all of you, there's nothing.
Speaker 1:I like that one a lot. Yeah, that makes much more sense.
Speaker 3:And then also your fears and insecurities. You have to talk about that. You have to bear those out. Again, it comes back to communication because your fears and insecurities grow and if you project those into a relationship it's sabotage from the beginning. We have chickens right now and this is kind of a weird way to relate it to it but if your chickens can and will, if the circumstances are right, they'll eat their own eggs. And so here you are, feeding your chickens and then they eat their own eggs.
Speaker 3:Get nothing out of the evening. If you want to fix that, what you have to do is get a whole new flock and get rid of the old one, and fears in the relationship are just as counterproductive as if you were to get a whole new flock of chickens that don't eat eggs and then take one of the old chickens and bring it into that flock so it can teach all the rest of the chickens to eat eggs Completely counterproductive. If you go and form a new relationship but you bring your old luggage or your old baggage into that relationship your fears and insecurities you're doing the same thing. You'll just continuously poison one relationship after another. Ever that go of the past.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:I really don't think there's a price to marriage. I think it's quite the opposite. Everything about marriage, everything about commitment, is an investment, an investment in the future. It really is, and you have to give. There's also a saying in life that if you want to receive, you must first give. You can't give to receive. You must give for the sake of giving. And I think that plays right into relationships too. You have to Obviously, you go into a relationship because you get married, because you want a life partner, you want a soulmate. But you can't just get a soulmate. You have to give your soul, and as much as that makes sense, you have to give yourself to that point.
Speaker 2:Thanks for tuning in to Mind Manners with Albert Nguyen. We hope you found value in this episode. If you'd like to work with Albert one-on-one, visit optimindcounselingcom to learn more about his private practice. Looking to join a community of like-minded individuals, watch Mind Manners podcast community on Facebook and join our group to connect with others on their wellness journeys. Finally, if you haven't already done so, please write us a five-star review on Apple Podcast and let us know you're enjoying the show.
